MAILBOX: Ireland v England reaction

The response has been non-stop with Ireland’s 43-13 Six Nations of England at Croke Park on Saturday. It was a fine perfomance by the hosts, and a less than satisfatory one by the visitors. Well, at least that is what you had to say about it amongst other things…

No complaints from an English perspective! Comprehensively beaten by a side that played with intensity, pace, power and precision. Even when England gave themselves a glimmer of a chance at 26-13, Ireland swiftly snuffed out the fightback. They played the sort of match that only New Zealand would be capable of producing and certainly if they can carry this form through to the World Cup then they have to be genuine contenders.

– Stuart Hicks (Dorset)

Basically nothing but being of Irish origin, brought up in England in the not so tolerant 1960’s, and now living in Milan Northern Italy, today is a happy day for me!
Italy’s victory over Scotland and Ireland’s humiliation of England gives me two really good reasons to go out on the town and celebrate!
Thank you, thank you, thank you to all those concerned.

– Sally Ann Flanagan x x x

What an embarrassment to watch that was. Was there a plan ‘A’? Didn’t seem like it from where we were watching. Ireland were up for that from the kick-off….England seemed content to try and defend and didn’t look close to scoring. I’ve said for longer than I care to remember that we seem to think putting muscle-bound apes on the pitch will win us games…where have the natural rugby players gone a la Guscott, Underwoods, Catt, Greenwood etc? Pumping big bench-press means bugger all!

– Matt Shaw

Once again this confirms that the Irish are definitely contenders for the World Cup this year. They have been a revelation for Northern Hemisphere rugby with there ability to tough it out up front and then use there backs to score. Long gone are the times of ten man rugby for Ireland and look at the difference it makes, a score of 43-13 over the English once a time ago would have been thought impossible.

Irish success at the world cup is virtually assured but still relies on two factors; one, they can all stay fit especially O’Driscoll. He is their lynch pin without his experience in the backs they at times tend to lack direction. Secondly, they hold form and don’t become to worn down as the world cup is still many months away too much rugby could be a problem for a team that is shallow in depth in key positions. In saying that as they have been playing well for the last three years these two factors look to have long been taken care of by the Irish management team.

I am not saying the Irish will win the cup, as the All Blacks look to strong , but they will break a few opposition hearts along the way including the French .

– Rob (Kiwi) Stewart (Dunedin N.Z) “Go the Highlanders !”

Any dreams the English may have had before this game as to their chances in the 2007 Rugby World Cup evaporated at Croke Park when an good Irish side thrashed the woeful visitors.The ghosts of those murdered by the English over 80 years ago were well and truly exorcised.
Seems that a change of coach has only served to accelerate England’s downward slide and as to Wilkinson,Wilkinson who?
Good to see our local lad Isaac Boss score an intercept try.

– Gerry Portegys (Tokoroa, New Zealand)

England got what they deserved. They were ill-prepared and over-confident and relying on three or four key individuals to carry the day and they were not playing as a team.

Ireland on the other hand played like the dominant force they are at the moment. A cohesive unit and playing to their strengths and covering their weaknesses.

Enough said!

– Michael Saunders

Brian Ashton is now unique in have been coach for Ireland during their record loss to England and for England during their record loss to Ireland.

Well done Brian!

– James Knipe

What an occasion. As someone from Anglo/Irish roots and living in France, I was enthralled by the match. Also, given the historical facts, this was going to be some event. The French have nothing but good things to say about the Irish supporters, and their behavior and sportsmanship is regularly commentated on in the rugby media here. Well the Croke Park spectators were quite magnificent and the Irish fans standing as TOP PEOPLE was only increased yesterday. The respect they showed towards England and their National Anthem was very intelligent and mature and completely in keeping with their reputation. As for the game. Fantastic display by the Boys in Green. Paul O’Connell was immense. They simply bashed the English up in every department.
On the performance yesterday, is there any member of the England team that would get into the Irish team. At the moment all Jonny can do is kick his goals. He is not bossing a game. The England three quarters look as ponderous as they did under poor old Andy Robinson. Fact, if these are the best players England have available then they are going to be regularly beaten.

As for Ireland: What a shame they went to sleep in that last minute of the France game. I think if they really believe they will get a result against the French in the World Cup.
Eddie O’Sullivan for the next head coach of the British and Irish Lions!!

– Keith Charge

I have to say, I have never been prouder to be Irish than during the anthems. I was delighted with the respect given to the English anthem, but then to see Hayes and Flannery crying, and to see how much playing at Croke Park meant to them, I really wish we could have a soccer team with the same attitude and spirit!

Fantastic game, but once you heard Amhran na bhFiann you knew the result was never in doubt, just the scoreline.

– Ronan (Ireland)

After this monumental defeat to the Irish, and a poor win over Italy I believe too much criticism is being laid at the foot of the England backs, especially Farrell. The real problem lies with the forwards who are just not performing, as we saw yesterday, and against Italy. Whilst the forwards are being out muscled, outfought and outplayed, the backs are constantly trying to play from the back foot, and given this, they are doing pretty well. Until we have a few forwards with the class of Paul O’Connell, Rafael Ibanez, Mauro Bergamasco or Martyn Williams, we will not be seeing our backs to their full capability. England have simply not got the caliber of forward that are needed at international level at present – or do they, but they haven’t been selected?

– Leslie Dawes

Ireland were awesome yesterday – I think Brian Moore summed up very simply at the end by saying England were just beaten by a much better team. As an England supporter I’m not sure where we go from here, I agree with the comments that Farrell has not made the impact we wanted, and the forwards were totally dominated but who do you replace them with? Are people suggesting a 35 year old Mike Catt is really the answer to the centre problem, who do we bring in the forwards? Unfortunately we have to face up to the fact that at the moment we simply don’t have the players anywhere near the quality teams like Ireland do.

As for Ireland I thought they were fantastic – however – if they have designs on mounting a serious challenge for the World Cup – and with the players they have they should be – they have to perform when it really counts and for me they just haven’t done that. For all the quality rugby they play they have still yet to actually win anything (I don’t really count winning the triple crown but coming second in the championship a good result for a team this good). This isn’t a case of sour grapes, lets be honest they were always going to win yesterday, and whilst it was a great performance they needed it two weeks ago – not yesterday, they could have probably beaten us without getting out of second gear. Love or loathe the England team of 2003, when it came down to it they performed against the big teams when they needed to – if (sorry when) we get knocked out of the world cup I’d love to see Ireland win but their big players need to start standing up when it really counts.

– Gareth (Le on Solent)

This was the most gutless performance I can recall from an England team in over 30 years of watching international rugby. It’s not very pleasant to watch the national side of your favourite sport humiliated but in the post-2003 era we’ve become used to defeat. Most of the time we could attribute it to a team denuded by retirement and injury, poor selection or just a lack of creativity. The depressing fact about Saturday’s game was that many of the players just didn’t look ‘up-for-it’. That impression was all the more stark because of the contrast with the Irish, who, to a man, played with passion and a pride in their national shirt that just wasn’t apparent from a big slice of the England team. Perhaps its natural justice that the margin of the Irish victory almost equaled that of England’s game in Lansdowne Road in 2003. It’s difficult to draw any crumb of comfort from a game like this but at least we didn’t capitulate so easily on home soil.

It would be quicker to run through a list of England players who didn’t embarrass themselves than those who did. Martin Corry battled throughout but it was probably symptomatic that when Brian Moore picked-up on a “bit of afters” not caught by the camera, as it finally came into view all we could see was a kneeling Corry and hear Moore complaining that the England contingent (was it just Corry on his own?!) had been outnumbered by the Irish, implying that other England players were not prepared to pitch-in and support a team-mate. Grewcock was brooding and snarling as usual and, although he will undoubtedly be criticised for being sin-binned (again) I’d rather that than the conciliatory approach of others in the white jersey. Worsley put himself about but never really imposed, largely due to an awesome performance by the entire Irish back-row. In the backs Strettle was lively; Lewsey looked dangerous whenever he got the ball and Ellis confounded my opinion of him by looking good even behind a pack that was going backwards. Johnny can be congratulated on his kicking (a near-miss from the half-way line just proves he’s human) but it was an omen of things to come when, early in the game, the normally defensively infallible Wilkinson missed a relatively easy tackle and let Dempsey (I think) through on a break. The replacements generally added a bit of much needed impetus – Tait’s excellent try-saving tackle on Horgan was just one part of an overall good game and Rees could hardly fail to have improved on Lund who, struggling before, seemed to give-up after the high-tackle incident. Julian White at least registered.

I’m a fan, not a rugby commentator or analyst, so I may have overlooked some important contributions but the rest of the team ought to hang their heads in shame. They were anonymous. Freshwater was on the pitch but not in the game. I can’t believe that the guy in the white shirt with 4 on the back was the same Louis Deacon who, a few weeks earlier, helped Leicester to smash a Munster pack that formed the core of the opposition yesterday. The normally lively Chuter was nowhere to be seen. Everyone now seems to agree that the Farrell ‘experiment’, whilst probably worth a try, has failed. He looked like a donkey against a truly world-class centre pairing. – A big, strong donkey. But a donkey nevertheless. I’m somewhat neutral on Tindall – he did what his own limitations allowed him to do and with a reasonable amount of conviction. Which brings me neatly on to the captain – the so-called “Raging Bull”. I find it difficult to criticize Vickery, who was such an important element of the 2003 team but what we’re seeing today is a shadow of that man – more lamb than bull. Also a victim of injury and therefore not fully fit, he isn’t worth his place, and rugby isn’t the sort of game where you can afford to carry a passenger, whatever their leadership or motivational qualities.

And so to the point of this rant. I’d be the first to agree when a rugby team fail on such a massive scale as this the reasons are rarely simple. I’ll also admit that the “Croke Park factor” probably had some impact – undoubtedly a huge plus for Ireland and probably a negative in the minds of some of the English who certainly seemed to enter this match with an apologist frame of mind. But I keep coming back to the fact that England is a country of 60 million people verses about 5 million in Ireland (and less in New Zealand). Even allowing for the fact that soccer is the overwhelming game in England we should still have a vastly bigger, and statistically therefore better, player pool to choose from.

We really ought to be in a different class. So something must be very wrong in “the system”. And whilst I don’t entirely blame the burn-out due to fixture congestion it must be a factor. 8 of Ashton’s team played last weekend according to Nick Cain’s Sunday Times article on 18th and a further two were only getting ‘time-off’ to recover from minor injuries! It’s not just the ability to avoid injury (and wouldn’t we all have liked to see Andrew Sheriden, Steve Thompson and Jason Robinson on duty yesterday) but the time available to mentally build yourself up for the game. Sportsmen can only ‘peak’ so often. And with the Zurich Premiership and the Heineken league two of the most demanding competitions in world rugby, it’s not entirely surprising that an England game no longer has the ability to draw-out extraordinary performances from our players.

I am a great admirer of the knowledge and insight of sports journalists and commentators such as Stephen Jones but I am beginning to disregard their blind loyalty to Premier Rugby League. Whilst I don’t think the motives of those involved are blatantly mercenary it’s difficult not to allow the source of one’s income and/or notoriety to cloud your judgement. And that goes not purely for the owners and administrators of the Premier League clubs but for those who make their living from commentating on it: as the whole point of central contracts is that there would be fewer big games to drain our top players, to force them to aggravate minor injuries until they become acute, and to deny them the time to mentally focus on forthcoming internationals. Therefore fewer to write about and comment on.

With so much money now swilling-around in English professional rugby I’m not hopeful that we will see a patriotic resolution to the problem soon. But those of us who just want to see an England team playing to it’s full potential need to make our voices heard.

– Martin Phelps

Firstly, as an Englishman and a fervent supporter of the national team let me say congratulations to Ireland on a superb display and thoroughly deserved victory. A great day and a fantastic sporting occasion and Ireland were worthy winners.

My concern is where to now for England? I think it’s time to write off the rest of this championship and indeed the world cup, forget it, there is no way back for this group of players and we need to be looking further into the future and bring together some of the best youngsters around now so that come the next world cup we’re ready. If we lose some along the way then so be it as they will have to learn but unlike some of the doomsayers I think that is sufficient young talent around the Guinness premiership to bring success back to England. It does need to be nurtured and be together for a while as per the 2003 squad so why not start now? The current team is never going to move forward as most have shown what they’ve got and are to set in their ways to change now. The front row wants changing on mass, Vickery, brilliant though he was, is no where near the force he used to be and players like Andrew Sheridan need to have an extended run in the team. Surely the time must be up for Grewcock? He has become a liability. How many times must he leave the side short handed before someone decides that we’d like to play the game with a full compliment of players? I also feel that although he tries hard and gives everything Martin Corry is not really a truly international class no. 8. It’s a shame that Ward-Smith picked up the injury before the tournament as I feel he would have brought something to the party. Again, get him in there as soon as possible. With the exception of Corry I feel that the rest of the back row (i.e. Worsley, Lund and Rees) have performed quite well so far in trying circumstances and should be allowed to continue to develop. Personally I have to express a preference for Rees as the openside given his performances for Wasps this season and I felt he had a very good game in a losing cause once he came on against the Irish. In the backs the England hierarchy must surely now admit that the experiment with Farrell just isn’t working? Maybe he will be great given time but he won’t make it beyond this world cup so why persist, give the youngsters a chance. Tait played well after his introduction on Saturday and he is a centre for Newcastle so why not give him a run of games there? His pace alone would be a novelty in the England midfield! Strettle also had a good game and I think has the makings of a superb international winger, I can’t confess to have seen or heard much of him before Saturday but I was impressed. Olly Morgan too deserves more time. Harry Ellis is getting better by the game and then you have the likes of Anthony Allen, Ryan Lamb, Toby Flood, Shaun Geraghty to name but a few. Cueto coming back is a plus and Lewsey needs a break from international rugby to rediscover his form I think? Basically I think that there is enough in the England tank to make them a very competitive side but maybe not yet for a while and personally I’d be tempted to pull all the youngsters together and keep them together over the next few years. Give them a crack at the world cup this year and although they won’t win it they should be capable of making it out of the group stage and the experience would be invaluable. In short England have to do something drastic as with this bunch of players they are going no-where and that perhaps is the one place that they are going with any real pace!

– Tom Burbury (Worcester)

Great win to Ireland. No one can deny they are a great chance for the triple crown and the world cup. It’s a pity they couldn’t close out their game against the French. Wouldn’t a NZ/Ireland clash last November/December been great?

Poor Poms. You can’t help thinking that there’s a long way for them to go. I guess poor refereeing in NZ match and wins against substandard opposition means they haven’t had to fully face up to their own weaknesses. They certainly got done defensively in the first half and didn’t look that flash on attack. You have question how much rejoining the club competition last week affected their ability to compete as a team. I wonder if the fact that the Fleet St press builds them up to the world’s best or complete failures from week to week also leads to their conservative approach?

Another thought don’t these results throw the farcical group selections for the world cup 07 into focus. It shows how hard Group D is going to qualify for. You have to feel for whoever misses out. Although the winner of the cup is probably likely to come from 1 of 4/5 nations. It now looks like there are 12 teams that can play competitively. It also throws into light the Scotland/Italy result. Surely that’s got be good for rugby as it slowly grows to a global game?

– Sid

Hats of to Ireland. A great display from a well organised team with a well organised RFU, with only one subject on there agenda, making Irish Rugby the best.

Hang you’re head in shame, the English RFU. I have never seen a more disorganised and exhausted looking team take to the field for England. With tales of full on, training sessions during the week , coming after a hard week of premiership action for most of the England squad I lay the blame for the demise of English rugby 90% at the door of the RFU and 10% at the door of the clubs. Everything in the English game bar the premiership relegation and promotion issue is wrong. We have a fragmented season, which frankly in any other sport would be deemed ludicrous. There is no natural progression to the season in terms of level of competition and the players are suffering because of it. There is no continuity. The RFU want’s total control despite the limited level of contribution to the professional game that it has made. It will not make any attempt to advocate any changes to the European Cup, Six Nations, or SH test that (heaven forbid), might benefit English teams, or English rugby as a whole. While Irish Welsh and Scottish teams play in the joke that is called the Celtic league, our teams are playing competitive games every time they blow the whistle in the Premiership. That in itself is fine, but our season is so ill organised and slanted towards the Celtic nations betterment that it then becomes a burden. Start the dam premierships in June finish it by December then have a break and in January start the European competitions; they would be finished by mid March. Then bring the national squad together for 11 continuous weeks. Imagine the premiership coaches having no interference with their season. Being able to plan there training programmes knowing no idiot from the national squad is going to force his players into hard core training sessions less than 48 ours after a basherthon in the premiership. A natural progression after a seasonal 3 week break (the All Blacks are in re-conditioning training as we write) to European Rugby. Another break and then it’s the Six Nations and straight into a maximum of four SH matches. As part of this the national coach would have access to his players for 11 weeks. This is what we need. But this will not suite the Celtic nations as they will see it upsetting their season. From a financial point they depend on the European gates (and sponsorship) as these are virtually the only games that can guarantee to fill their grounds for. But once they have restructured their season they will be no worse of and we will be far better of, which is the only point of concern that the English RFU should take.

The RFU will say that the players are playing to many games for there clubs. Rubbish. Our World Cup winning side had players who played more games per-season that the current crop. A good portion of them were better players than the current bunch, but we have stood still, while god bless them, the likes of the Irish haven’t. The role of the RFU is not to share a glass of decent claret with their Celtic counterparts, while telling how well their team played. Its to tell them that this is how they (and the English teams) want it and if they don’t change, we (along with the French) will pull rank and pull our teams out of the European competitions, out of the Six Nations and set up our own Tri-Nations with Argentina coming in as the third team, because that’s how we are going to have to play it and to hell with tradition.

– Charles Evans (Manchester)

Ireland were arguably the best team on the day who easily outplayed England, there’s no denying that. That doesn’t alter previous facts of the referees’ behavior of the past few years, so to criticize a team for being cheated out of games (which has happened at least twice) is unfair criticism.

How the heck is the England team supposed to perform at their best when they have played at club level a few days earlier as Joe Worsley has pointed out? Sack the idiotic moron Francis Baron.

I agree that Andy Farrell should be dropped who’s too slow, Peter Richards is far better. David Strettle’s try was good, but we needed a lot more ferocity, speed, and ruthless attacking from all the team all the time, which club level performance shortly before that takes away.

WHen we play France on the 11th, the England team must act as if they are playing New Zealand, with the greatest speed, passivity, and ferocity, which they can’t do if playing at club level also.

The RFU is entirely to blame for the state of the England team, or we might have had the valuable Robinson, Cueto, and Ballshaw. Congratulations Italy, three tries and three conversions in seven minutes is unbelievable!!!

– Paul Gibbs

One of the reasons why so many people cant stand England is because of their pig headed pride. When they win, they gloat to the extreme and when they lose they are never that bad, it was because of someone else’s fault, the wind was too strong, the grass was half a mm too long, their pillows weren’t fluffy enough causing fatigue through loss of sleep, blah blah blah. I don’t care. Take it on the bloody chin. I hated the loss against Ireland that the Boks suffered, but you have to deal with it. We had injuries, but so what, on the day they were better, and you just have to acknowledge that. You know what? One of the commentators actually said after the game, “I don’t think we played that badly today”. The cheek of it! England will NEVER recover from the mire they are in because they are arrogant, stupid, brainless retards!!! Point in case, just before the game against Italy, Jeremy Guscott arrogantly predicted that England would destroy Italy and score 50 odd points. That Wilkinson was all conquering and would slay them. Absolute rubbish. What the game against Ireland shows is that England are not going to win the WC again by penalties and drop goals like they did the last time, its going to be won scoring tries. Why? Because most top sides are built to tear into the opposition. England never had that in their WC winning side and thus are going to be in for a rude awakening when they finally realise that JW isn’t going to save them and quite frankly isn’t the player that he has been built up to be. I believe Jonny will crack under the pressure, in his absence, England fans have become delusional that Wilko is all of a sudden going to transform England. Everything I said would happen has happened, I was never bought by that ordinary performance against a shambolic Scotland side. Its like the football WC, England beat nothing teams and all of a sudden are built up as being the best team in the world, however, once they get there, they are shown up for what they truly are, substandard. England needs to seriously get some perspective and quickly. I believe they are better than this, not by much, but enough to be more competitive, and they are cutting their noses to spite their face by being pig headed. What is it they always say? Pride quickly follows a fall…strange coincidence, wouldn’t you say?

– Springbok

I was one of the few privileged England supporters to be present at Croke Park on Saturday evening. I was also fortunate enough to have a pitch side seat just behind the England bench. It was a truly memorable occasion and one that I will never forget, regrettably though the memory of the England performance will stay for many years as one of the most half hearted and inept I have ever witnessed (I was also present at the debacle versus Argentina last November so you can see that I have had some experience of inept England performances). It was always going to be a momentous occasion for the Irish and the team, as well as their supporters were absolutely ‘up for it’ in a way that the England XV could only dream about.

I watched the Leicester v Munster match in the Heineken Cup and remembering that this was at Thomond Park, where Munster have never been bettered in the Heineken and also the final match for this proud team in their soon to be transformed home, I was astonished by the magnitude of the spirit that the Leicester boys showed in what must have been one of the truly great performances by an English club team abroad. They had passion, belief, attitude and an immense desire to win at this most difficult of venues, despite the passion of the Thomond crowd, they played their hearts out.

All of the attributes that Leicester displayed against Munster were absent from the England performance on Saturday in as equal a hostile environment. England were totally gutless and as a supporter and also someone involved in the grass roots of English rugby, myself and my fellow travellers were humiliated and embarrassed by such a performance. Even the Irish supporters, who were good humoured and as friendly as always, were embarrassed on our behalf, well after they’d stopped laughing. They were right to laugh at us English supporters because our team had been laughable in their display on the pitch and it’s becoming very very boring for English supporters.

It’s not about preparation time and training time, at least it wasn’t on Saturday. It’s about the absolute desire to win and it was very sadly lacking at Croke Park by 21 players on that hallowed turf.

Yours frustrated,

– Tom

England went into the last world cup setting the bench mark for preparation and physical conditioning in world rugby and although that cannot make up for skill and naturally gifted individuals it certainly is a solid foundation.

I don’t know about all the other nations but you read about the All Blacks and Ireland and it appears that over the past four years they have taken the benchmark set out in 2003 by England and improved upon it. England on the other hand has regressed to less training now then they probably did in 2001. The results are clear to see Ireland were deserved winners on Saturday but you could not but help notice that the England players looked weaker, slower and towards the end worryingly out of condition.

In my humble opinion England are blessed with many talented individuals but in this climate we are only likely to produce the one off games that show encouragement but are unlikely to be able to turn that into a series of results or momentum. The irony being that England probably invented the template for successful international rugby and decided to abandon it on the eve of success.

– Daniel Massie