MAILBOX: Pot calling the kettle All Black?
With the All Black coaching trio of Graham Henry, Steve Hansen and Wayne Smith having launched an attack on the ‘poaching’ of local players by richer Northern Hemisphere clubs – is it a case of the pot calling the kettle … All Black? This is what you had to say about it, and boy did you have a lot to say!
Firstly I think the development the Island team players get in New Zealand provinces and Super 14 teams is only of benefit to the Island nations. If any of the AB’s want to make some cash out of their careers I see no reason why they can’t make a decision best for them, be it playing abroad for money or staying at home for other reasons. Is Wayne Smith talking from experience with regard to imports weakening local talent – I’m trying to think of who he attracted to Northampton who now seem enshrouded in foreign vs. English player conflict not to mention not being involved in top flight rugby.
– Ryan Lundy
Whatever your opinion may be regarding this matter, there is one simple fact that needs to once and for all be understood by all our dear friends in the Northern Hemisphere regarding the so called ‘poaching’ of Pacific Islander players by New Zealand. I suspect that a lot of the individuals who respond to such requests for an opinion on this matter have never been to the Southern Hemisphere, have no knowledge of the fact that Auckland, New Zealand has the largest population of Pacific Islanders in the world and that Pacific Islander players who have been fortunate enough to be selected for the All Blacks have spent most of their lives living in New Zealand.
Their families live there, they were educated there, they plan to live the remainder of their lives in New Zealand and the New Zealand Maori culture is very similar and close to their own. NZRU do not trawl around the Pacific Islands taking highly skilled, mature and developed players from their villages to be put into the All Blacks.
Without actually spending some time in New Zealand you can never be expected to fully appreciate and understand this, so I suggest you pack your bag and get out of your comfortable residence in Richmond and get down under to broaden your horizons. One thing is guaranteed, NH rugby will remain 2nd class for as long as you fill your teams with SH players that prevent the development of your own players being eligible to play for the country in which they have made their home. You only have to look at your football team to see the similarities and dream of 1966. As for New Zealand rugby being in a turmoil with some of our finest players leaving for the NH money, be rest assured we have an abundance of players waiting in the wings. If the rules permitted we could win 1st, 2nd and 3rd place at the RWC.
Relax guys and take off the blinkers.
– Kiwi Nick
Oh how I wish England had never won the 2003 WC, for no other reason than the fact that idiots who wouldn’t know a ruck from a maul now spend a large amount of time parroting Stephen Jones’ dubious wisdom. Having grown up in the same neighbourhood and played for the same clubs and schools as Rodney So’oialo and Jerry Collins I’m not going to credit the poaching tag with a reply, but Henry has been selectively misquoted. In reference to Luke McAllister Henry said that he could be one of the best players in the world if he was in the right coaching environment, that won’t happen in the rather skill-less and dour English domestic competition. Maybe you could start coaching youngsters properly so they don’t have to come to NZ a’ la Martin Johnstone to learn proper skills. But on the bright side if English clubs follow the current pattern and fail to develop their domestic competition you’ll never make it past pool play again, the game will slip into obscurity and we won’t have to listen to any more pontificating from the ignorant…
– Chris Boys (Wellington)
Reading all the opinion from your “pot calling the kettle black” of which most contributors pointed the finger at New Zealand for poaching players from the Islands I think it is only fair that you should publish a few statistics to put the record straight. I refer to your excellent article of 5 November 2003 “Born here, play there” in which you listed the amount players born overseas but playing for another country in the world cup of 2003.
Out of the entire squad of 30+ players New Zealand had 5 players born outside New Zealand ( one was an Aussie) which was just one more than England who had 4 players born outside England. Australia had 3, Ireland 6, Wales 4, Scotland 10.
Now with the greatest respect for the Islanders what is really interesting is that Fiji had 3 players who were born in New Zealand, Tonga had 8 of which 1 was born in Australia and 7 born in New Zealand and Samoa had 14 all born in New Zealand.
Just like many British and European people emigrated to New Zealand so have many Tongans Fijians and Samoans. The Majority of Islanders playing for the All Blacks were born in New Zealand or emigrated there as small boys with their parents. If it is OK for people of British and European descent to play for the All Blacks then is surely OK for people of Islander descent to play for the All Blacks as well and for some of your readers to say they should be stopped from playing for New Zealand is quite insulting.
Maybe I could draw a parallel to the British Athletics team who, quite fairly, has many athletes of African and Caribbean descent running for them. Now there would be a hell of a stink if someone should suggest that they should not be allowed to represent Great Britain.
– Gareth Williams (Wales)
It is quite interesting that a large majority (if not all) of Northern Hemisphere posters think that there is some similarity between All Black players being offered huge salaries by NH clubs and the so called New Zealand poaching of Pacific Islanders players.
This point has been raised, re-raised, re-hashed and god knows what else by NH posters on the Planet Rugby forums. To be honest it gets to a point of complete absurdity and it is quite sad that NH posters can not understand even a simple argument that when a Pacific Island individual has lived in a country for god knows how many years (Lets take Lauaki for instance – who happened to have gone to primary school in Auckland, is accused of having been poached).
To be honest I’m unsure as to whether the rehashing of the Pacific Islanders claim is just to make Northern Hemisphere posters and supporters feel better about themselves when they loose to the All Blacks, after all it is much easier to claim that the opposition has cheated rather than admit that they were actually a better side.
The point made by Henry and Co is valid, Northern Hemisphere clubs are paying excessive amounts of money to lure current top flight Southern Hemisphere players in an attempt to improve their own game. Maybe NH posters and supporters should be asking why money like that isn’t being spent on developing their own players as this is reducing the possibilities for young players in those locations to develop and also play within that competition.
– Pete Ra
The problem with the Northern club sides is that the clubs pay the players and not the national Union. This leads to the clubs having to much control over the national competition and the standards of the national teams.
It has always been this way in soccer, for these countries with some club sides made up entirely of foreign players. Also the national sides have to ask for a release or the player having it written into his contract. In the Southern Hemisphere rugby players are paid and contracted to the national bodies, thus giving them more control over there own standards from wage costs/development to planning fixtures. You will never see the shambles that has gone about over the Heineken cup from the clubs. This is because we all paid by the same person and are heading for the same goal line.
When a private billionaire from Russia controls a club in France or England do you really think that he cares how the England team in South Africa is losing by 50-points. Of course not, he wants profit. Not development of his team or the national team of New Zealand.
The England Cricket board brought in a foreign player limit a few years back so it could raise the standard of their national team, so will the England Rugby Union when they grow balls!
– Steve Mulloy
It is not as simple as it seems regarding New Zealand’s so called stealing the Pacific Island players. NZ is a multi cultural country with more Pacific Islanders in Auckland then in any other place in the world i believe. Sivivatu and Lauaki are the only current “poached” players, having both played for the Pacific Islanders side.
However money is not the sole reason they elect to play for the All Blacks, if they have grown up outside NZ. It is the All Blacks jersey and the close connection between the Pacific Islands and NZ. They could earn far more overseas, but elect to play in NZ.
The issue is more complicated then Henry being a hypocrite because some of NZ’s best players are of Pacific Island descent.
– Patrick
It is a great call by Graham Henry!
At the moment the international game is failing and the gap between New Zealand (especially when it comes to depth) and the rest of the world is ever increasing, which is odd considering New Zealand has just over four million citizens.
Most people will complain about the All Blacks poaching players from Pacific Nations. There are a couple of reasons why this argument is invalid.
Firstly, the bulk of overseas players that play for the All Blacks – and I mean the vast majority, moved to New Zealand for reason’s other then Rugby. Many of the players like Tana Umanga, Jerry Collins, Joe Rokocoko, Ma’a Nonu etc moved to New Zealand at a very early age, well before they were even near club rugby contention. Unless of course you want to argue the Jo was in the All Black frame at 5 years of age.
Sitiveni Sivivatu moved to New Zealand in his late teens, a victim of poaching? I think not. Upon a recent trip to Fiji I learnt the Sivivatu could struggle to make his Fijian high school first XV. Which leads me to my next point – Development.
The point of Henry and Co’s statement was not only to stop taking our players but to spend money on developing your own.
The international game is suffering due to a lack development in many countries. UK/France is a prime example (in pouching New Zealand players) which is what Henry is referring to but take a look at Australia. The Aussies spend millions of dollars on buying league players every year and Australia is really struggling with development.
Look at the Super 14 results – the Waratahs and the Reds right down the bottom of the table. The Force finished mid-way which is probably due to the vast amounts of cash they have, which is not good for Australian or world rugby. The Brumbies finished top of the Aussie teams and I must admit that the ACT is the only state in Australia that has any recognisable form development. It does get worse. The NSW club rugby competition is very predictable having only three sides with the ability to win it.
Now, before anyone asks “But how many players born overseas have played for New Zealand?” I will tell you. It is less the 8 per cent. Yes, 92 per cent of the players that have played for New Zealand were born in New Zealand. Only 27 players that have played for the All Blacks were born in Tonga/Fiji/Samoa.
On top of these figures I would like someone to say how many of these players were ‘poached’ and were lured to New Zealand by large sums of money and how many of these played dreamed to one day play for the All Blacks ever since they could pick up a ball.
– Haden McAlpine
It seem like a bizarre stance from a country that specialises in continuously taking the cream of the Pacific Islands’ talent and passing them off as their own.
The English Clubs are trying to bring over the cream of foreign talent to develop their domestic youngsters and add a draw card fro the crowd. Take it as a compliment and focus your energy at not choking again at the World Cup.
– Peter Byre
Henry, Hansen & Smith are right. However they lack credibility on the issue as each one of them has taken huge salaries from the Northern Hemisphere!
– Mark English
Absolutely a justified rant by the AB coaches. I’ve written to your website before on this (when Hayman was signed) but didn’t believe it would go this far.
What are the Northern Hemisphere unions thinking letting their game get eroded in this way? I heard recently that there are only three English-born first choice first-fives in the Guinness Premiership. If this is true, does that not worry all English supporters a bit? (I’m not sure about other positions, but would imagine similar stats for wingers at least.)
They have by far and away the biggest player base in the world and yet they want to grab Kiwis and Saffas at the expense of their own players. I seriously think that if this current trend continues the international game is in serious trouble.
The Northern Hemisphere has kept Argentina as a second class team by not releasing their players for internationals and are now setting their sights firmly on New Zealand. This will only serve to weaken New Zealand, French and English rugby.
NZ are currently the leaders of the pack, try and develop some play to catch them. To quote someone (who I can’t remember) “you can’t strengthen the weak by weakening the strong”.
Rugby cannot compete with soccer on a world stage for popularity, money or numbers of players yet the Northern Hemisphere systems seem hell bent on following this model.
The French have definitely laid their stall out on this as one of their players showed in the test on the weekend. Can’t remember the players involved but there was a slight bit of contact and the Frenchie was writhing on the deck in a performance that any Italian soccer star would have been proud of.
Last time I took the field (last season) rugby was a game played by men for the love of it. Now it looks like even something as sacred as your national jersey (in this case the famous black one) is second to cash. Sad days for our game.
– Andy Neilson
The Pacific Islands never have to put up with this sort of thing from New Zealand, do they?
Pot? Kettle? All Black…
– Tim Payne
Mr Hansen, Henry & Smith would look less hypocritical if they hadn’t headed north themselves in order to line their own wallets. Their anger looks slightly ridiculous given that they all found the sterling rather more appealing than developing young NZ talent only a few years ago.
– Nick Connell (Devon, UK)
To the question ‘Justified Ranting?’ on the above subject, I think any free-thinking rugby person would probably have to say yes. We all wish our own unions to act in the best interests of the national team by nurturing and developing the best young players. Clearly this needs to be balanced against the need for a club owner to at the very least break even; as 1) commercial success will help a healthy game to bring about playing success and 2) the young players will have the chance to learn a huge amount from the imports.
However, I think the ranting significantly loses credibility because of the person and union that it is coming from. I don’t recall Graham Henry offering these same views when selecting Shane Howarth and Brett Sinkinson to represent Wales during his time as coach there (regardless of the subsequent questions over eligibility). Nor do I recall this being a significant moral problem for Wayne Smith, at about the time he was helping to turn Northampton in to an expatriate club. Is this a short-term change of view now that the circumstances suit them? (There is far too much of this in sports and politics in my view.) – I think probably yes, and it’s so thinly veiled as to be highly angering.
My other (more important) issue with this view, relating more to New Zealand rugby rather than Henry and Smith in particular, is around player imports from the Pacific Islands. I have a feeling that the financial rewards available for playing in New Zealand (or Australia for that matter) are a major reason for so many players of SP descent appearing in the Super 14 and/or international colours. The New Zealand Rugby Football Union (NZRFU) appears to have done little to promote and develop the game in this region in return for the fantastic resource that it has been able to make use of. Sadly, nor have any other members of the IRB. The NZRFU conveniently overlooks this point, as do the three people involved in this viewpoint. Glass houses and stones.
– Neil Ager
Interesting rant from Henry and co – I notice they don’t apply this logic when they take the cream of Island players! The AB’s are all too happy to bring in the Samoans, Fijians and Tongans when it suits their local and international interests but to the detriment of the Island teams. Please be consistent…
– George Carter
Hmmm…
The club rugby powers that be in a group of unimportant islands, use money as incentive to obtain the rugby services of world class players from financially less well-developed countries. Sound familiar Mr Henry ?
Call it what you will, it sounds like a question of common sense to me. You get more money somewhere else, you go there. A lot of us do this in our working lives.
I think the three gentlemen are being a bit hypocritical about this issue.
On the other hand he does have a point about the development of English players by English clubs.
– Chris Matthews
Totally agree, it massively restricts development…….but it’s difficult to respect such an opinion coming from the country that has emptied the Pacific Islands of all their talent!
Are they ever going to stop moaning?
– Ridge
I believe the southern hemisphere teams develop a more attractive style of play than their northern hemisphere counterparts are able to. The major reason is no fear of relegation the Super14 teams play to win the Premiership teams play not to loose. There is a huge difference in approach to the game and willingness to experiment on offence with flatter wider lines and more inventive patterns of attack. Watch a northern hemisphere club match and you’ll see the pattern of crash-crash-crash-kick. They play to the percentages very well in the north, they play to the game very well in the south. It’s no wonder the clubs are plundering the not as wealthy southern unions. As example from my 6 months of school in New Zealand we had a 10/12 who didn’t even start every match for my club in Auckland but the next season was featuring regularly for his Premiership side. With the pace of the migration England in particular will buy itself out of developing its own talent and become much like its football team, a lot of hype but never a real threat. The reason they won the world cup was a home grown team that was bigger, stronger, and fast than any team they faced. That works when you play the percentages. They have no home grown talent anymore.
– JG (USA)
Have England and France (1st and 2nd highest player numbers) ever thought about getting their own talent? They keep dissing the Super 14, but they’ve recruited so many of its players that they’ve just about imported the whole Super 14 lock, prop and barrel.
Hypocrites!
– Peter Johnson
I have always had the greatest respect for what I considered to be the quiet, tough and determined way of Kiwi rugby. I’ve followed rugby since a kid, firstly in Rhodesia, then in South Africa and now in New Zealand. I always considered the Aussies and English to be the past masters of the ‘Massive Moan’. But having moved here 2 years ago, I have been astonished at how much the Kiwis’ moan about the other teams or refs! What the hell…? What’s that all about? Stop moaning and just play the game New Zealand. Play the hand you’re dealt guys, geez. Get on with it and respect your opposition. They respect you…!
The stench of uncertainty is beginning to creep into this Kiwi camp, just when I thought they were well nigh invincible. Watch the Boks and the Tri-colours give them a good go, come September/October.
Can’t wait, let the games begin!
– Rory (Christchurch)
Isn’t it ironic that the NZ hierarchy whinges about Northern hemisphere clubs robbing their players when this is what the have done to the South Sea islands for years on a national level.
– Matt Baters
You’re one to talk Graham! You Kiwis are famous for poaching Fijian’s, Samoans’ and Tongans etc… and then you give them citizenship in order to play for New Zealand! Don’t give us a lecture about poaching players and developing home grown talent!
If anything having players of the caliber of Luke McAllister in the Guinness premiership and in tandem developing home-grown talent can only improve the English game. New Zealand rugby knows this and they are worried!!
– Angus Hartley
The New Zealand Management is getting confused between the club game and the international game. When other countries pinch players for their national sides (most notably Wales in the past) there may be a point. Even still in those cases the players are usually discards from the southern hemisphere. In the club game, no one owns the players. That’s pretty self-explanatory. Club equals club, country equals country. The comments from Henry and co are so idiotic as to beggar belief. It’s the rugby equivalent of a conspiracy theory. They may not like what is happening. Sure. However the reasons given for objecting insult their own (presumed) intelligence. Actually coach Henry’s recent denunciation of the French ‘rotation’ policy is just brainless, given that he perfected the practice for all to copy. One hopes that coach Henry is deliberately sending himself up so that we can all have a good laugh.
– Peter Fahy
So the biggest poachers in world rugby are worried about northern hemisphere teams poaching a few of their players! My where will it all end?
Ugo Trivella (Zimbabwe)
It appears to me that New Zealand are happy to use their relative financial strength over their island neighbours to attract their best players. What right then do they have to complain when other countries do something similar?
– Barry Gallagher
Henry, Hansen and Smith were more than happy to come and take the money from the UK when they had the opportunity. They were also in their prime (as coaches) but did not hesitate.
It’s also a bit of hipocracy the fact that NZ and Australia entice all the South Sea Islanders away from their home countries with financial incentives… to play for their national teams!
– Paul Lloyd (Cardiff, Wales)
This has to be the most ridiculous and juvenile thing I have ever heard from a couple of professional men. Sure we all agree on the immorality of importing players, but that was part of subject 1 as a con against in 1995 when the game first officially turned professional. This is now a business and not a sport so let us lose the naivety.
In the English Premiership in Football (Soccer), I wonder what the percentage of hometown club players have progressed through to the starting line-ups. I’m sure an Arsenal vs Man United wouldn’t have any at all. The spectators have come to adapt and accept this so long as their side wins or remains competitive.
In my opinion, the real problem is the NZRU because there is no reason why the All Black players should not be making multi-million US dollars a year. The amount of All Black merchandise sold is astronomical – I see people in this part of the world (Canada/USA) wearing their merchandise and who do not know much else about rugby at all. New Zealand will have to do a lot more for the deserving players and perhaps set a global benchmark by cutting out the ‘nice to have’ but otherwise unnecessary overhead that most modern corporations have degraded their management virtues to.
– The Balls (Ottawa)
Speaking of developing their own players, why don’t they allow islanders players to play for their own countries and stop picking them.
How many of the All Blacks team are from the islands?
– John Massey
How can a man who has a high number of Fijian, Samoan and Tongan players in his team whinge about the Northern Hemisphere ‘Poaching’ his players?
That’s the pot calling the kettle black….
– Martin Kember
I don’t normally agree with Graham Henry as his outbursts are normally ill-thought out attempts at mind games that fall some way off the standards set by Woodward and Jones around the last World Cup, however he is absolutely spot on with this. The playing talent in this country is getting squeezed by imports from abroad and a diminishing base of talent from fewer and fewer schools playing rugby.
– Paul Edwards
Do these people do anything except whine continuously? Or have the media just caught them on a bad day/week/month/year.
And as for the article which says that “…Aaron Mauger, Chris Jack, and Carl Hayman, are on their way to England or France after the Rugby World Cup to cash in as their careers draw to a close…”, this is a bit loose, isn’t it? Jack is 28, Hayman 27 and Mauger 26. Hardly careers drawing to a close. The fact is that the NZRU doesn’t pay them enough. End of story really. And I don’t mind these guys coming over – it’s the journeymen who really are at the end of their careers and are no longer that good that I would like to get rid of.
– John Coppins
Are these the same 3 coaches who made their money in Wales and Northampton complaining about player poaching??
– Derek (London)
Graham Henry and Steve Hansen and Southern Hemisphere rugby in general needs a reality check. If you take South Africa out of the equation, then the population of NZ and Aus is less than half of the UK. All the Southern Hemisphere currency’s are how many to the pound. It is therefore no great shock that with a bigger local audience, more clubs and in general playing support that funds should be greater than those on offer from the Southern Hemisphere Super 14 franchises.
Other than the South Africa games, most Super 14 games are poorly attended. Compare this with the English and French club game where TV revenue is higher and it would be unfair to try and stop any Southern Hemisphere player who wished to “make hay while the sun shines”, during his best playing days. It could also be that the Pacific Island players decide to go straight to Europe rather than be paid paltry wages to play for Australian and New Zealand teams.
The day will soon come when the European clubs have feeder teams in the SH and those Fijian players who in the past would have been blackmailed by NZ and Aus to change their national status, either won’t have to, or may change it (after residency), to a European one. I hope it will be that they don’t have to.
Will this affect the quality of English players?
No. England won the world cup due to greater exposure to quality players within there own league and the input of certain foreign coaches (and players). This is a typical reaction from a country whose rugby union is virtually broke and who’s only concern is how everyone else can pay for them.
– Charles Evans (Manchester)
The hypocrisy of the All Black coaches is breathtaking. Are they going to stop stripping the pacific island nations of their best players!
– Jeremy Parkinson
It does no good for the game in either hemisphere.
Southern Hemisphere players leave for the north too early in search of big bucks (and who can blame them?) and thus the spots that should go to local (developing) talent are gone for ever ?
Maybe the Northern Hemisphere players should come south, play Super 14 and the Air New Zealand Cup, get noticed and then head north!
– Graham Hutton
I may be biased as an avid All Blacks fan, but Henry is right again as usual!
Deep pocketed English and French clubs really should spend their money on their own players to develop their own game. I understand that veterans like Hayman, Jack, Mauger and co. want to cash in as their careers come to an end and so they should. But when players in their prime like MacAlister and Gear are being poached enough is enough. Hopefully their National pride will be more important to them than the mighty Dollar, Pound or Euro. These Poachers are also a wake- up call to the NZRFU to get contracts signed that are substantial enough to hold these players in NZ where they belong until they pass their prime at least.
– KIWIRUZ
Oh boy, the word ‘poaching’ is mentioned with regards to an article and I can already hear the misinformed cries of the British and their All Blacks/Pacific Island players rants. But before these people get on their soapboxes about that tired old subject they should study the facts first.
The vast majority of players of Pacific Island background playing in New Zealand were actually born and raised here, and the bulk of the so called ‘island’ teams are made up of ,again, New Zealand born and raised players.
Hansen and company are quite correct with their points. Rather than develop their own talent, the Europeans seem quite content to send raid after raid on (mainly) New Zealand’s rugby stocks and in doing so not only deplete our strength (maybe that’s the idea) but ultimately their own.
Were I a European player, I wouldn’t take too kindly to someone being brought in to fill a spot that I’d spent years in the local competitions trying to earn. In the end all this poaching leads to local players not getting the top competition they need to develop and as such a lack of depth becomes a problem when national selectors have less and less national talent to choose from. Yet more short sightedness from the Northern Hemisphere.
– J Stewart
Henry, Hansen and Smith make a bloody good point.
The constant player flow from New Zealand to overseas does nothing to develop the game in the countries those players are going to.
NZ will always have a production line of talented rugby players, but what good is it doing French or English Rugby by bringing in foreign talent?
The foreign players take up places in their teams that instead could be filled by players eligible for selection for England or France etc.
This is weakening Northern hemisphere rugby, and the evidence of that is clear when you look at the standard of the Six Nations tournament this year.
Some of the buying from clubs in Europe borders on the ridiculous. Look at Toulon for an example: Gregan, Oliver and Mehrtens all signed up, and now they’re looking to get Matfield as well. Add to that they have signed Umaga as rugby manager!!
What is that doing for breeding/blooding local talent?…………Nothing!
– E P Cavanagh
Being a Player Agent I have to say, if you want to keep him there pay him more money! You have the money, put it into his hands and he will not leave.
Remember, it’s a business decision for the man.
– Ben Williams
Graham Henry and Steve Hansen’s rant about Southern Hemisphere and All Black players moving north to play European club rugby, as a “damage” to the game, must be some kind of joke considering the All Blacks might be hard pressed to stay in the top three of IRB rankings if they had not poached the hell out of every good player from Samoa, Fiji, Tonga and even South Africa.
– Peter Gee (K
