MAILBOX: TT gets an Italian bashing

A few weeks ago, Tighthead Thomas and Loosehead Les went head to head in a sensitive debate over whether Italy deserves to be in the Six Nations or not, arguing whether Argentina deserved to take the Azzurri’s place instead. It seems to have struck quite a high note with the Italian fans! This is what you had to say…

Hi, I am an old Italian player following your well made web site constantly. Mr Tighthead Thomas with his incomplete article “Time to end the Italian experiment” sounds like an offense to all the Italian rugby players and spectators. Tighthead Thomas should understand before writing on an impartial and professional site like planet-rugby a little geography and logistic.The Argentinean team could never afford the cost of such long trips, they are not part of Europe (although the population has relevant Italian/German roots). We are not an experiment Mr Thomas. The Italian team is a beautiful reality and I am sure the facts will prove the inconsistency and the futility of your article.

– Maurizio Curci

The article and most of all the question is simply ridiculous. The Six Nations tournament is an European tournament, and Argentina have nothing to do with it. The right place for the Pumas is the actually Tri Nations , and not the Six Nations. I agree that the Italians still need to improve their Rugby, but at the moment there are no better European Teams outside from the Six Nations tournament, as the Italians. It is enough to look at the recent RWC qualification matches, played from Italy against Portugal and Russia. Italy is simple the worst between the best European teams, and not the best between the worst European teams. To make them play in the “Six nations B”, would be much worse as to let them in the six nations tournament. This is the fact and the reality!

– ‘French rugby supporter’

Let the Pumas play in the Tri Nations where at least they will get some competition.

– Greg (Orlando, Florida)

Having just read the article on Italy and the six nations i am appalled. I have coached rugby in many levels junior, representative and seniors, and i believe that the introduction of Italy to the six nations was a revelation.

Believing that because Italy haven’t performed they should be replaced is simply wrong, and shows a side of rugby that is not acceptable. If we followed this line England would have no opposition prior to johnny Wilkinson joining the ranks, Scotland would still be in the doldrums and Wales should not have existed between the early seventies and two thousand and two thousand and four. The Springboks would have found themselves unwelcome for the last three years.

The Heineken cups consistent performers would be Leinster, Leicester, Munster, Wasps, Perpignan, Toulouse and Stade Francais, sacking the rest would cut the competition in half. It is interesting to note that each of these teams are in pools that allow them to meet each other in the final stages of the competition.

Players playing in other competition is not an argument either many Australians have been successful in European competitions, and this has in no way been detrimental to their country, the country they play in or the competition in which they compete. This is not confined to rugby, the English premier league soccer is riddled with foreign players, Serie ‘A’ in Italy is no stranger to foreign players and Italy won the world cup.

Inclusion not exclusion is the key to a successful society, so rugby should support and create more competitions around the globe instead of pushing more teams into established competitions. Argentina, USA, Canada and Japan. Tonga, Fiji, Samoa, The Cook Islands and country Australia are two competitions which would benefit from proper marketing, and would be well worth watching.

So create a new competition and expose new teams to the world on a consistant basis, and watch rugby grow…

– Tom Mcphie

I read with interest the arguments put forward by ‘Loosehead Les’ and ‘Tighthead Tom’ for the inclusion of Argentina or Italy in the Six Nations championship.

I feel that both nations would reap great benefits from being included. What would be wrong with expanding the competition by one week and making it a Seven Nations tournament? I don’t think it needs to be one or the other.

– Shayne Hope

Honestly, it would be fair to replace eventually the bottom team at the end of this year tournament, rather than simply targeting Italy for this !
Unless better arguments can be brought in by the Tighthead Thomas.

– Michele Andreotti (Italy)

Congratulations, congratulations and again congratulations to Tighthead Thomas. Sure he knows all about rugby, ah ah ah :-))) Last Wednesday he wrote: “Are Italy really worthy competitors in the Six Nations? The simple answer is a resounding ‘No'”. “It’s time to end the Italian experiment”. And again: “Not much seems to have changed for Italy”.

These are my replies: in Murrayfield, Scotland-Italy 17-37 🙂 Alessandro Troncon man of the match (he was man of the match at Twickenham too) 🙂 Italy 9th in the world ranking 🙂 A little less points from Wales, next opponent in Rome 🙂 Italy-Portugal (an European emerging nation, about Thomas) 83-0 in October for the rugby world cup qualification 🙂 I have to continue??? :-)))

I have a proposal: it’s time to end Tighthead Thomas to write on Planet-Rugby, i think it’s better to write an Argentinean man.

– Anon

If the same lack of patience had been applied to France when they joined as you are showing to Italy, they would not have lasted much in the V Nations, and rugby would probably not have risen to present levels in France. All it really takes is just one win for Italy vs England or France and these kind of clueless columns will disappear for good. I won’t even bore you with the increase in press rugby coverage here in Italy following their first away win over the weekend.

– Rhodri

Now, if Mr. Thomas had some bad experience with Italy, this is his own problem. I firmly believe that such an article goes against the entire rugby movement interest. Instead of trying to kick out Italy, a damn soccer based country, why not thinking to include Argentina as well and make it a “7 nations”? We are struggling to make rugby a beloved sport in our country, and being part of the 6 nations is helping indeed. If Mr. Thomas wants to create an Elite Group of countries, without giving the time to others to improve and compete at an always higher level, I think Mr. Thomas still has a lot to understand about how to create a movement of people and sport worldwide. Rugby is one of the few genuine sport movement on our planet so far, and thanks also to the suicide trend of our soccer, this is the time to push the “secondary” sports. This is the time to have support and not an article like this one. Ah, by the way, now that we won in Scotland, I expect him to ask also for their banning.

I felt really disgusted but I keep hoping to meet tons of people like always in Rome at the matches encouraging us to improve and reach excellent levels of rugby.

– Jacopo

I would like to thank both sides for their interesting albeit different views on whether Italy should be allowed to stay in the 6 nations tournament or not.

I would like to say that I agree much more with the article written to defend us, the “underdogs”.

It is true. We do not have a long tradition of successes in international rugby. Moreover our roll of results could cause some depression. Yet everybody can see the huge improvements that Italy has been making over the 7 years since it was admitted to the then 5 nations tournament. The victory at Murrayfield over a strong Scottish team speaks by itself.

Even Italy’s defeat at Twickenham a fortnight ago showed how far forward Italy’s rugby has moved since its first appearance in the tournament. The final result at Twickenham owed very much to Jonny Wilkinson surgical free-kicking. But Italy’s eagerness to play and do well was evident as the Azzurri dominated a long bit of that game and succeeded in scoring the only try of the match. Besides Troncon was awarded the “Man of the match” prize, a tribute seldom conceded to any of the defeated players. If we had not improved and grown up, would we have ever got any such final outcome at the “temple of rugby”?

I entirely agree with Loosehead Les when he says that although Italy loses a lot, it would be “against the philosophy of the sport” to say that we should be kicked out of the tournament. Conservative thinking seldom does well for the society and for sport. In a not too far future I think Italy will be rated more than it is now. Italy will over time develop its own style as in its own course of time France built its own champagne-rugby (we’ll see whether we’ll call it Prosecco or Chianti-Rugby on that day).

I think that sending Italy out and let Argentina in would be myopical. Whereas I believe that Argentina could greatly enrich any tournament (why not let them enter the Tri-nations tournament, given that Argentina is in the Southern hemisphere?), sending Italy out would impoverish the 6 Nations trophy and damage the tournament and rugby reputation at the same time, confining this sport in an Anglo-Saxon society only, where some French and Latin guest-stars can be tolerated.

I thank you for your attention and congratulations for the interesting debate.

– Fabio Quintiliani

I wish to congratulate tighthead Thomas for his profound and correct analisys on Italy in the tournament.

Perhaps a friendly advice: wouldn’t’ be better for him to follow curling, golf or other British sports ?

With a lot of affection…… from a happy Italian

– Paolo Tarakdjian

If New Zealand had been playing Brazil – at rugby that is – and after six minutes the full might of the All Blacks had scored three tries and led 21-0, you would not be surprised and the All Blacks would feel pleased with themselves. But this was not All Blacks against Sambas. This was Italy against Scotland at Murrayfield, and after six minutes Italy led 21-0. It must be a unique situation in the annals of the International Championship however many nations were playing.

Three tries in six minutes!

Murrayfield was stunned.

AHAHAH SHUT UP MR TIGHTHEAD

– Ponti

You can not dump Italy after 7 years, look how long it took the French to establish themselves in the championship. They are getting better and they should have won more games than they have, if it were not for a few schoolboy errors here and there. They do have some world class players and are generally a young side. Half back is a perennial problem, but how will they develop if they get relegated.

Promotion and relegation should happen, but not yet when the Georgians and Portuguese are not there yet. Italy should have joined before they did when they had a decent side. Rugby needs to have more sides that are capable of beating the top 8 and Italy have that potential. We missed a chance with Romania in the 80’s and I think we should persevere with Italy.

– Tom

P. S. Italy have the best National Anthem

Dear Loosehead Les,

I read with great interest your article about the Italian Rugby team and agree to your points, and the spirit of your article without reservation.

You have touched on the issue of the growth of rugby in upcoming nations and the necessity of progress.

I would like to expand on your clarity of thought and analysis , and hope to enrich a theme which you have elegantly illustrated.

I would also like to add some impressions and illustrations to your article about the background of Italian rugby from an ex pats point of view who has lived in Italy for some time.

For years Rugby, amongst most other minor sports, has been a forgotten ground, ( with possibly the exception of volley ball etc,) poorly understood and badly covered by the media.

It is fair to say that sport in Italy is dictated by a media whose sole aim is to provide a ‘feeding frenzy’ of football, to the football ravenous Italian public.
Understandable in context, money making for the few, and great for the masses.

Possibly the recent football scandals have jaded this appetite. Or can I believe Italians are now giving more time to less mainstream sport? Or is it a reaction to the cynicism of the money making machine? Or just boredom?
Or the press has run into a cul de sac?

The reality is that more press time is now dedicated to individualistic sports and minor activities to which I should add the Italians excel , as they have consistently done in the past.
And as always have been sidelined or forgotten.

Fencing and swimming are an example where previously un-sung heroes have come to the fore of late, and have now, finally, become recognised by a press which needs to find alternative ‘clean’ figures or niche sports to write about, and attract attention.

Rugby in Italy until recently, has been little understood . The ball was the wrong shape, and rugby is often confused with American Football, which is obviously found boring in the extreme by the football mad masses.

The inclusion of Italy in the Six Nations has transformed the image of rugby in Italy beyond all recognition. Italia ‘s inclusion has been pivotal to a strange phenomena.
Public recognition for a real sport.
A sport where the players are not taking dives for ‘the money’ and where sporting cynicism has not been identified with the game.
Guts and grit fly out of the television screen. It is real TV and not reality TV.

This is , I should add, is what rugby represents.

And as it should, this honesty and grit comes across to the Italian viewers.
The excitement and continual movement , the individual courage of the players, all these have touched a seam in the Italian psyche. The television numbers grow.

Undoubtedly the television coverage has been instrumental, Sky sport has been a great promoter. La 7 a leader and a strength. Unfortunately, the club game is still in its infancy. Poorly followed.

As such the real promoters of the sport have been the Italian National team.
They may not yet win the six nations , but the sports viewers in Italy are beginning to find a new hero team to follow.
They as viewers, don’t fully understand the game but they have identified something in the sport which is wholesome.

In addition to this, something strikes the Italian viewer when the national team actually really singings the national anthem! That doesn’t happen often!!

I can also illustrate this appreciation and new awareness of rugby by a banal episodes which I have personnally experienced , and hope these underline the progress the game has made in Italy.

Allow me to move into a new space. The Italian company canteen is the setting.

Seven years ago they talked soccer. And only soccer.

For the last 18 months I have been asked why the Italian rugby team loses. I tell them they play really well. Winning is not the real issue in rugby. They ask if I played, I’m a Scotsman. Logic really.

I didn’t start the debate, they have just become more aware and interested in a sport which they don’t fully understand. The national team has , however sparked an interest.

I try not to confuse them when I say that the Italian team never loses, they just don’t win, unless against Scotland. However they are all great players, and some of them world athletes.

I don’t think I explain that well either.The game is about commitment and even if you lose there is always respect. I don’t think I get that over well either. Happily they want to listen. They have identified a new value. They want to know more. I am happy to expand on the theme.

In reality the Azzurri have done it for me.

I think this is starting to come over to the Italian public. The viewers seem to increase.
Without any of my explanations which probably would have confused the issue.

I just try to tell the truth.

And increasingly throughout the Rugby cosmos there is great respect for the Azzurri within the Six Nations and worldwide.

Well done to them.

We should be happy for them, and happy for the all the Italian club players and the viewers.

Incidentally, as a Scotsman, I hope the threw Azzurri don’t beat us again.
But who cares as long as it is a good game!

– Scott

First of all, I’m sorry for all my mistakes, but I don’t speak English really well.

I’m an Italian fan. I’m from Rome, and often go to the Six Nations matches. I don’t agree that Italy isn’t a team good for the Six Nations tournament.

Of course we don’t have a so long tradition as all the other teams, and rugby in the past has never been the main sport in Italy, but maybe we have to remember better what happened last years.

I think that Italy improved a lot in last 3-4 years. Not only the team, but the fans too. I remember four years ago the Flaminio with almost more foreign fans than Italians (for example when we won with Wales). now you have to buy the ticket at least one month before to find a place in the stadium. in last years i remember very good matches, last week with England, last year again with England, Scotland and Wales. In all these matches we had a consistent possibility to win.

Every week millions of people watch the matches on TV and rugby is more and more popular in Italy. The passion is growing and today for us, think to beat England or France is not a dream as five years ago.

We have a strong defence and our scrum is one of the best in the world. Our problems are especially in the attacking phases and in the backs. but we are improving there too.

Then (and i remember that your site sometimes underline it) often the referees don’t help us much (as last match with England).

I think that Italy is a great resource for rugby and for the Six Nations and that one day we will win the tournament.

Argentina is a great team too, for me better of a lot of the teams of the Six Nations, and it would be a great resource too.

i agree that our greatest problem is the fly-half. but we are not the only one team with no great players somewhere.

Tell to Tighthead Thomas that we don’t consider us as the centre of the world, but that with the our passion and hard work, we are entirely part of this tournament now, and we are creating an our own Latin way to this wonderful sport. a bit different from the yours.

– Lorenzo